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Post by Shani on Jun 5, 2008 5:33:20 GMT -5
Agreed with Neon, Darfy, and Ben. Humans will only complicate things. Why fix what's not broken?
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Post by Darfix on Jun 5, 2008 11:53:21 GMT -5
Yeah, I mean, what next? Half way through the RP you gonna decide that our characters are space marines and need to go fight evil aliens or something? "RETROFIT DA HARBINGER, WE NEED TA KICK SUM ALIEN ARSE! MRAYRUARUARYAYRYAYRA!!!"
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Post by Elliot on Dec 23, 2008 0:15:35 GMT -5
RICO'S ROUGHNECKS, REPORTNG! LET'S GO GET THOSE DAMN BUGS! *cough* We never really finished this discussion, it just kinda got swept under the rug. I'm bringing it up again, because I had an idea for... *gasp* A HUMAN CHAR. Also, think about it. Humans exist on Earth, living with the anthros. This is a BIG deal, the Harbinger taking off. First time deep space exploration? Everyone wants a piece of that. There are bound to be humans on the ship, whether the rest of you want to have them or not So I'll sign up to be the only human there if I have to, but I'll make one XD On a second, Double Whammy note, I can give a logical reason as to why there are more females than males on the ship. From a population standpoint, one male could easily "seed" 30 females singlehandedly. Easier to keep the crew going for a long journey with more females to work with. *victorious pose*
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Post by Benny the Bear on Dec 23, 2008 9:01:25 GMT -5
I.... do not concur. This topic didn't get "swept under the rug" as you say, but beaten with sticks, stones, set ablaze with torches and ejected out of the airlock. It's been half a year since Keppy replied in this thread to try and justify/argue the inclusion of humans in HE and everyone said they were against it. You even posted graphs/statistics of why humans would have been edged out due to their inferiority. That hasn't been confirmed, or even decided yet, because as I said above: Keppy hasn't replied. Assuming there would be humans, even on the Harbinger, then It'd most likely be one of the civilians, as the anthros wouldn't assign any vital functions to an "inferior" being. Let's assume three things if there are still humans living on earth and they are not genetically inferior: 1: There are humans on earth, but then Orph's mother and Herald's wife, was not a human, because humans are no longer genetically inferior. 2: That Orph's mother was a human, but Orph has visible human traits, as do all human/anthro "hybrids" 3: If Kep would want to keep both his mother human, and Orph an anthro, then one would have to follow "Disney logic" and eliminate hybrids, since only one of the parent's genes would be dominant per kid, preferably of the same gender at that. I wrote hybrids in quotes in point 2, because anthros are already technically hybrids of humans and animals, which leads me to my next point. The "The Most Extreme" show on Animal Planet that I watched a long while back always gave the idea that animals, on an apples-to-apples playing field, would always have some advantage over humans, usually making humans seem modest in comparison. While humans are the lowest denominator in physical capability, they always had the advantage of intelligence, and can do a little bit of everything but fly. Anthros do not have this limitation, because they are animals that have already been brought up to a human level of intelligence and versatility, without losing their animal attributes and abilities. Relatively, this would allow Em to bite through metal, Fizz to literally lift 21x her own weight and Nellie to feign death such that even the medics might believe that she's actually dead. What all of this amounts to, is that humans would have absolutely no reason to exist as they would have no advantages over the anthros. Not to mention that most RP's render anthros in an Aesop-esque manner, with animals replacing humans for any number of reasons. ..... Technically, scientifically, you are right! A single man could re-populate the earth. Heck, Souley (and all other r-types) can have over an upwards of a hundred kids in one mating, but that's not what the RP is about. First of all, the trip is only 10 years long (but possibly 20) and most of everyone would still be alive at the end, let alone being concerned with having kids (heck, even Ben might be alive after 20 years). Second of all, the major corporations who build the Harbinger didn't hire statistics to pilot their ship but actual people with skills. And by "people with skills" I mean scientifically-minded people, which are the least likely lot to think about sleeping around, on a mission of this importance no less. And did I mention (an idea you yourself suggested) that there should be no less than a hundred crew members not counting civilians. Just because they aren't being roleplayed, doesn't mean they aren't there. For all we know, there may actually be more men than women, because more physically intense jobs such as security and engineering are preferred by men (Sia doesn't count since she's a "worker" of a species where 99.5% of the population are women and the males are there only for the purpose you mentioned. Seven may as well be a guy, since it wouldn't change anything). you make it seem as though you're saying "Hey guys, how about the Harbinger crew is populated by women and they only took guys along for the bang?!" TL;DR: No humans until it is decided, by the majority, via a poll, that humans will be allowed.
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Post by Shani on Dec 23, 2008 9:52:28 GMT -5
Yea, as Benny said, you wanted a much larger crew, so most of it is anonymous now and whether or not there are more female player characters doesn't matter as much. Why even Kalte alone could, and would, "seed" all the females on the ship. But then this isn't a setting where the earth blew up and their ship is the whole remaining population. They're not expected to start a new settlement on another planet either. Maybe it's just me, but I don't like this purely biological, animalistic view as the reason to why the Expedition prefers more females over males. Some of the female crew members would feel uneasy about this being their use as well.
I agree that we need to make a poll concerning the humans, since Keppy has not replied to the topic for too long.
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Post by mizzy on Dec 23, 2008 10:59:16 GMT -5
Am I the only one who thinks we're being a little narrow-minded on the human issue? The voyage is a good 10 years in the making, probably more, and while humans would be inferior living amongst anthropes, that doesn't affect the possibility of a human populated planet somewhere along their journey of discovery. I mean, face it, the game is going to be pretty boring if they don't run into interesting alien races and things.
Granted that idea would mean no humans until they come across such a planet. And then maybe the likelihood of humans being brought aboard (probably as rufugees or something). Would pave the way for some internal conflict of inferiority, racism, etc.
Just thinking out loud. =3
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Post by Elliot on Dec 23, 2008 11:06:19 GMT -5
Well, apparently people don't understand a joke o.o the whole mating thing was supposed to be just that. You guys put WAY too much thought into it. As for humans, it's being turned into a nazi-esque atmosphere here. I don't think anthros would consider humans inferior, or themselves superior. Obviously SOME would, as that's just the nature of personality, but as a whole I would think that humans and anthros would essentially live together in harmony. They'd work together, they'd play together, they'd go out drinking after a long day on the job together, just like we do now. Being physically superior in SOME ways wouldn't necessarily mean that they're superior in ALL ways. Maybe humans in general have a higher average intelligence? They also don't have instinctual issues which can throw them off at times. Humans are also known to be very good at focusing on multiple specialties at the same time, maybe Anthros aren't as good at having multiple greatly varying expertise? Sure, they can branch out a bit, but say they're generally limited to a few things, most of which would be in the same general category, such as computers and mechanical engineering. Humans are ALSO known for being able to overcome all odds from sheer will alone. That may not really count versus Anthros, but it still would count for something. The genetic concept was tossed down I believe in Chat, rather than on the forums. Kep and I talk about this sorta thing every once in a while, and I believe that back when this was the big discussion, he had decided to make their genetics equal. In other words, 2 pairs human and 2 pairs anthro would produce a random result, otherwise numbers are dominant. So even "humans" could have as much as half their genetics show anthro. That brings up the next subject. Is bestiality a sin, in a world like this?
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Post by Kepora on Dec 23, 2008 12:06:19 GMT -5
Technically it isn't bestiality because anthropes are thinking, sentient beings, not just instinct-driven animals.
And Elliot's right...I'm trying to remember how I described it; I'll go see if my chat logs date that far back. There -ARE- humans in this world, and I had it explained; I just need to remember how I explained it.
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Post by Benny the Bear on Dec 23, 2008 13:49:18 GMT -5
Ok, we live in an age where everyone can vote, and this RP belongs to everyone. Though the idea belongs to Kep, everyone must take an equal part in it.
So lets get some things out of the way:
First, we were never against humans in general. We were against humans living on the same planet, alongside anthros. Mizzy's idea is totally viable, and we're up for meeting aliens.
Oh? then how is it that different human races (species, actually) have and still treat others with bias? Now imagine a world where literally different races of creatures that looked nothing like each other lived.
Ok, so maybe humans wouldn't be treated in any "special" way but that doesn't remove the potential for racism non the less. If all was an idyllic fantasy world and everyone was buddy-buddy with each other, it would be a massive bore, and unrealistic. Conflicts make it interesting and believable.
But that's just the problem! you're evening out the natural order of things again, by making humans even smarter and more capable after having done the same to the anthros already. The captain, his genius son and all the heads-of-their-fields on the Harbinger are anthros. So how are you planning to put humans on this ship? If humans were smarter wouldn't they take the head positions?
This whole debate stems from the fact the Kepora did not tell anyone but Elliot anything regarding humans. So everyone jumped into making anthros, assuming not only that humans were not allowed, but didn't even exist. So Kep, next time you decide to tell someone about a new idea, post a thread about it as well, because it causes complications for those not in on it.
Adding humans to the RP is totally redundant because in the grand scheme of things they will be just another type of animal as far as the others are concerned, because since we already brought anthos up to the level of humans, there would be no point in them existing unless:
A: They are god-like beings who can bend time and space with their minds. B: They are just as they are now, but have superior brains, are probably the dominant race on earth and must replace the current specialist heads. C: They were used as slaves by the anthros way-back-when, because they pose no threat/advantage physically or mentally. D: They are genetically engineered, but least thought of as "equals" E: They are aliens who did not have contact with the anthros.
If they are just another type of animal then why would the anthros have stronger genes? and why wouldn't Orpheus be just another hybrid? If they are aliens who came to earth a relatively short time ago, that would be your best and least confusing way to explain why humans are still alive to this day and why anthro genes are stronger, allowing Orph to retain a fully hyenid appearance.
This is a Sci-fi and not a "Fantasy world". Making things believable and logical is of greater importance then "Because I feel like it" or "They where there all along"
-Benny, Shani
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Post by Elliot on Dec 23, 2008 14:22:09 GMT -5
If they exist, they exist. It in no way affects anyone currently in this RP whatsoever.
Explain how a laser rifle works. Or light speed engines. Can you? Not likely. In most Sci-fi, they were "there all along". Most things in Sci-fi aren't even believeable, which is what makes the genre so interesting. Sure, it could happen someday, but right at this very moment that's just impossible, no way. You don't get a history that's hundreds or thousands of years back with the grand majority of Sci-fi. So in this situation, yes, "they were there all along" would pass just fine.
I never said that there wasn't racism. In fact, I did actually say there would be, if you read back. However, it does NOT mean that the entire anthro race as a whole would look down on humans with bias. After all, if humans have existed for millions of years alongside anthros, and they still exist now, they obviously aren't inferior. They may not be better either, but they certainly can be seen as equals.
And the aliens thing recently showing up could work. Maybe THEY are from earth, and this is some other planet the anthros are on, who knows. Maybe the humans ARE more advanced, simply because they've been around longer? That would explain how they made first contact instead of the other way around, and could even explain their hand in HE, and encouraging the anthros to produce their own deep space vessel. It could work.
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Post by mizzy on Dec 23, 2008 15:12:31 GMT -5
I think the issue with humans and anthropes living together for so long would be the breeding. After such a long time neither human nor anthrope would exist and instead the planet would be populated by hybrids. This is of course assuming humans and anthropes are even -compatible-, another issue that needs to be raised. Just because they're humanoid in form doesn't make them compatible.
Also, Elliot, the point to Sci-fi is coming up with fantastical ideas that -can- be explained. Frankly I -could- explain how laser rifles or lightspeed engines could theoretically work. Based on real-world science even. The point is, this RP is based in science, not fantasy, and unlike religion you can't just explain it away with a single circular argument.
I personally believe the anthropes should be separate from the humans until initial interactions in the RP, for both the story and believability.
And no offense, but in a world populated by humans and anthropes, it's a greater likelihood that the -anthropes- would be looked down upon. We as humans are not very accepting. It's like our world as it is right now, making first contact with a new alien species; shoot first ask questions later.
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Post by Shani on Dec 23, 2008 15:25:31 GMT -5
Well put, Mizzy!
Part of the whole compatibility issue is the fact that Orpheus' mother was a human. Keppy is trying to find a way to work that out, because Orph doesn't look the least bit human; all hyena anthrope.
Elliot, what we meant by them being "there all along" is Kepora not telling us about them and then putting them in as an afterthought. And it very well could affect the existing characters, depending on whether or not the humans look down upon the anthropes and which positions they'd take up in the crew... which may be the head positions :0
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Post by Elliot on Dec 23, 2008 15:31:22 GMT -5
Mizzy, I think you missed the point of what I was trying to say with the Sci-fi thing. Yes, you can explain some things like that, but that doesn't mean it's necessarily possible, not at our level of technology anyway. That's why it's Sci-fi, it's beyond our understanding. it still stands that most of these things are just there. There's little to no history as to why they are there, it's just assumed that they are in fact there. Hell, as a random example, you could go find one of those Star Trek books explaining how the Enterprise works. They can go into fine detail about how the warp engines function, using this and that and the other thing. But they never explain what this and that and the other thing ARE. They're just there, they've been there. Maybe this just comes down to perspective. The way I see it, just because humans haven't really been mentioned doesn't mean they don't exist. They just aren't part of the main focus of this story. Plus, there's always retcon. We did it before with expanding the crew to fit the nameless, faceless characters. We can always do it again, no matter what we decide about humans. Personally, I like the "aliens" idea
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Post by Kepora on Dec 23, 2008 15:39:02 GMT -5
And I was hoping some of that would come into play, Mizzy..add some interest to all of this. As for the rest of you, you all have a part in this, and you're all entitled to your opinions, but in the continuity in which HE takes place in, there are humans. END OF DISCUSSION.
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Vap
Full Member
[Z0:2]{Zoologist and Resident Crazy}
Posts: 168
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Post by Vap on Dec 23, 2008 16:35:05 GMT -5
Eff that, Kep. I'm sorry, but I can't sit by reading and not say anything anymore. This is NOT the end of the discussion because you don't hold full sway to what goes on. I mean, hell, I should be considered 50% in ownership of the idea, or have you forgetten that? But I'm not selfish and do not force my opinions.
But maybe I can put my two cents into this problem. I think there should be humans, but seperate from the anthro planet, making them 'aliens' per say. AND along with that maybe the humans USED to live on the anthro planet, their science first starting the anthro evolution. But when the various species became smarter, stronger, more dangerous than usual the humans were becoming endangered, making them realise their mistake in playing God and forcing them to leave the planet and start anew. This would have been so long ago that humans would be all but forgotten, being sort of like the dinosaurs of today. Now you might wonder how they would have gotten into space so early. Well it wouldn't have been early, it would have been futuristic in technology of sorts when the humans left, but because animals have no use or understanding for technology so early in the evolutionary process, remains of human occupancy would shrivle into ruins and be forgotten. Therefor a new age would start with the anthros with their intelligance starting like a neanderthal and slowly evolving to their current state, meaning they would start their years from the begining. Like instead of being 223113435423 it would be the year stated in the RP, because as you know even though the year is 2008 in real life, the earth is billions of years older than that, which holds my starting over theory.
Case in point being: Humans evolve normally in begining; start further evolution in normal animals; humans leave; animals start to evolve through the ages just like humans; anthros are the result of today.
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